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"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th; malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists, themselves, away from the guilty."
- President Bush Speaks to United Nations, November 10, 2001
"We don't know what we don't know." -Donald H. Rumsfeld
"This site & all these moron conspiracy theorists have accomplised (sic) what they set out to do-raise doubt. No proof is necessary-just doubt."
- Anonymous, 7/28/2007
"In light of that sorry record of the propagandistic exploitation of the 9/11 tragedy for partisan political purpose, is it any wonder that large numbers of Americans have doubts about all of it and that a considerable industry of documentaries and investigative reports has sprung up with alternative theories ranging from the plausible to the absurd? http://www.commondreams.org"
-Robert Scheer, 9/11/2006
" Gawd, I love this site."
-H Nicole, 9/14/07
"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th; malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists, themselves, away from the guilty."
- President Bush Speaks to United Nations, November 10, 2001
"We don't know what we don't know." -Donald H. Rumsfeld
"This site & all these moron conspiracy theorists have accomplised (sic) what they set out to do-raise doubt. No proof is necessary-just doubt."
- Anonymous, 7/28/2007
"In light of that sorry record of the propagandistic exploitation of the 9/11 tragedy for partisan political purpose, is it any wonder that large numbers of Americans have doubts about all of it and that a considerable industry of documentaries and investigative reports has sprung up with alternative theories ranging from the plausible to the absurd? http://www.commondreams.org"
-Robert Scheer, 9/11/2006
" Gawd, I love this site."
-H Nicole, 9/14/07
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66 comments:
Hell, yeah, I saw the plane. There was a great big unicorn galloping into the building right in front of it, and three leprechauns riding on top, waving their tiny hands. How could you not see that, shoes? You must be drinking the Olbermann kool-aid again.
Nice try...now show the video from the other pylon camera that shows the A/C.
LOL!
Does anybody have information on what the heck to put in the request letter? I couldn't even get past the part that asked, "What agency are you writing to?" because the DoD had about a dozen or so selections to choose from.
http://tinyurl.com/f47r3
Cryin' shame that all these people aren't KKK Neo-Nazi Repug Blackwater sorry old white men who watch BO and listen to RL...
There were two videos released by the Pentagon, apparently. Neither are very clear, but both have been analyzed in greater detail showing something with a white streak trailing behind it. The second video is more convincing that whatever it is might be a plane because you can clearly see a tail section sticking up from behind the "kiosk" thingy:
Analysis of video one (the one posted here):
http://tinyurl.com/km4r4
Analysis of video two (the one posted in a previous thread below):
http://tinyurl.com/qkdth
http://tinyurl.com/2jz9j
Both Black Boxes, remains of all but one passenger, scads of eyewitnesses, security cam vid...I'm tellin' ya', it was really Xenu and The Thetans.
"Of course, evading bedrock evidence is standard procedure for conspiracy theorists. If pressed, they would doubtless claim that all of the above must have been planted or manufactured, but they can't even prove such a claim plausible, let alone true beyond a reasonable doubt."...sound familiar?
Been there, done it, and seen it nic...years ago.
http://tinyurl.com/2racxe
We looked at both tapes, if you can show us a clear, definitive, unmistakable image of a passenger jet, we'll STFU.
From loserboy's recommended site:
http://tinyurl.com/3xrz89
http://tinyurl.com/nsefm
Hold on a second...I don't know who to believe, shoes -- an administration that's known for lying, deceiving and manipulating -- or my lying eyes!
Okay, I'm going with my lying eyes. I did not see any reason to believe a plane hit the Pentagon. If they want people to believe it, there's a simple solution -- release the tapes.
I'm tellin' ya'...it was Xenu and The Thetans...GREAT band.
You can catch their act in the Mental Ward...
"Of course, evading bedrock evidence (What evidence, show us the evidence of a plane flying into a building) is standard procedure for conspiracy theorists. If pressed, they would doubtless claim that all of the above must have been planted or manufactured, but they can't even prove such a claim plausible, let alone true beyond a reasonable doubt."
Where's the plane, George? Tell us about the plane.
Good post, Life. The two witness testimonies that I am most interested in, because they tentatively support my claims that the plane may have been at least partially dustified by anti-missile devices just before it hit the Pentagon, are from Tim Timmerman and Joel Sucherman, as follows:
Tim Timmerman:
"I saw the airplane disintegrate and then just blow up into a huge ball of flames."
http://tinyurl.com/ytdgbr (at about time marker 1:41)
Joel Sucherman:
"There was an explosion, flames shot up, there was white smoke and then within seconds there was thick black smoke surrounding the araa."
http://tinyurl.com/2mlgaq (at about time marker 0:25)
My good friend Steven Warran (http://stevenwarran.blogspot.com) has previously posted this information on his blog about a compilation of video eyewitness testimony for planes on 9/11...
"Over at the Pilots For Truth Forum, an Italian with a Japanese name, Ashoka, has created a thread called Pentagon Eyewitnesses (Pages 1 2 3 ) where he posts his work--film clips he extracts out from the unedited tapes of the September 11, 2001 telecasts of the various network and news channels, an indispensable resource found over in the Internet Archives. He creates individual clips of the various interviews of eyewitnesses to the attacks, to be found on five of the most beautifully organized pages I think I shall ever see, which brings the truth that much more into focus."
The "five pages" Steven mentions can be found here:
http://dailymotion.alice.it/Ashoka_lc/1
Keep in mind that Steven Warran takes the approach, understandably so, that the witnesses were probably duped in some way or were government/media fakers. I don't blame him and think the gov should release the tapes. The reason they don't is probably two-fold:
1) They don't want a clear picture of the incident being shown, especially if it shows a clear picture of the plane (or whatever it was -- most likely a drone) being dustified or having done to it whatever the anti-missile system did to it.
2) They prefer the 9/11 Truthers go over a cliff on this one as "wacky conspiracy theorists" in the eyes of Congress, a little like WTC7. No doubt the real videos of planes being partially disintegrated or hitting the Pentagon or whatever have already been shown to key people in government, including Congress (like the top-secret WTC7 story) and Congress has been told that the films will not be released for obvious "national security reasons" to protect secrets of anti-missile tactics and also out of respect to those who were disintegrated on 9/11, or some such story.
Again, you can see why an army of Truthers approaching Congress with this evidence as being a "conspiracy" and demanding a new investigation is just falling on deaf ears and may actually be working against catching the perpetrators in the end because Congress has been duped as well, just on a different level, that's all.
Just one photo, one frame of a plane just before impacting the Pentagon. Where is it?
This may be one reason why the idea of Directed Energy Weapons might be considered a bit of a joke by many in Congress...
http://tinyurl.com/2l2ded
It's called the scientific process, and unfortunately, you get a lot questionable carpetbaggers (especially some who may just be over-zealous male engineers) along the way.
Problems like this, where non-scientific congresspeople (like Hilary Clinton) are somewhat taken in by BS from mostly male scientists, will diminish more and more as we start to get more women scientists into better decision making positions in politics and in the military, she said, as she once again wins the "wishful thinker of the week award" for the tenth week straight.
I agree, Shoes -- they won't even give us that because, as I said, I think they'd prefer we all go over the cliff. Also, Congress may have gotten only a brief, yet highly convincing, glimpse a long time ago, but at the time they were not looking for what we Truthers will be looking for and will probably find -- the Truth -- if we have unlimited access to even just one picture.
Good point in where to apply the pressure, though -- ask "what the hell could possibly be so top secret or so important that you will not release a single damn frame or photo of the 'plane'?"
Nice try...now show the video from the other pylon camera that shows the A/C. WHERE? Where do you see a passenger plane in either video, Sherlock?
You all just crack me up...or, should I say, "dustify" me. LMAO!
Elementary, my Dear Watson, I use something other than a 1950's B/W Zenith for a monitor.
It's there, you just don't WANT to see it.
http://tinyurl.com/2zw5fp
lies, lies,and more lies...I can hear it now.
Good link, Life. If we just redefine "missile" to mean "airplane drone-missile," I'm sticking with the French guy's version until further notice. I never knew he had proposed remote control of the planes in NYC. See, I'm not the only one for sure...
Theory: American Airlines Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, but rather a missile did. This theory was originated by French conspiracy theorist, Thierry Meyssan, with his books: L'Effroyable Imposture (French), 9/11: The Big Lie (English), and later Pentagate. He also suggests that the planes that hit the World Trade Center were remotely controlled by the U.S. government, and not piloted by the hijackers.
In my recent viewing of every darn live broadcast that day from every network, I also noticed at least one other person putting forth the idea of a remote controlled drone (his words), so from day one it was thought to be a possibility by at least one person other than myself (except I never thought this, myself, until recently).
There has to be clear visible surveillance footage of the Pentagon from the D.O.D. Where is it?
What are they covering up?
How could an aluminum plane penetrate
clear through 3, steel re-enforced concrete bldgs? The frickin' Pentagon! WTF?
"There has to be clear visible surveillance footage of the Pentagon from the D.O.D. Where is it?"
Why? They weren't expecting anything of this magnitude. What did you want them to have? A full blown HDTV Blu-ray super dooper production studio with cameras every 10 feet all the way around the building? Come on...
And I'll bet your ass they got a lot more high quality vid goodies now because of what happened.
How do you know they don't have hi-res satellite images? They would have had time to task a sat if it was close enough because of the time lag after the WTC's were hit. Who knows? They sure in the hell aren't gonna' make that stuff public for Nat'l Security reasons.
And a missile didn't hit it. Cruise missiles are little bitty compared to any airliner, and I mean little. And while a few "witnesses" reported a "missile", that's their amateur terminology. Many!, Many!, witnesses reported exactly what they saw and I'll take preponderance of their testimony any day over just a few selected edits for twisting the facts.
And the only other kinds of "missiles" are ballistic, and they don't "fly". They are launched into a trajectory that then degrades to the point of where they come in from above...hence the term "Ballistic". AND..."missiles" are usually hypersonic, traveling anywhere between 3500-8,000+ MPH, which is faster than a rifle bullet. The SR-71 flies faster than a 30.06 at 2100 MPH.
And the "hole" that is so famous was punched out...that's old news and means nothing.
Okay...
at the 1:40 mark (I belive) the "plane" hits the Pentagon.
But as you watch, even around the .40 mark, everything seems to flow very naturally.
I DID NOT see a plane. I DID NOT see a missle. Was it a plane? Was it a high speed missle?
I saw a fireball (multitudes SMALLER than what was seen at WTC) that disappeared quicky.
I'm really not sure.
What I am sure of, is that I did not see a passenger airplane.
"hey weren't expecting anything of this magnitude. What did you want them to have? A full blown HDTV Blu-ray super dooper production studio with cameras every 10 feet all the way around the building? Come on..."
Do they HAVE to??? It's the PENTAGON. Shouldn't it BE HDTV Blu RAY SUPER DUPER PRODUCTION STUDIO WITH CAMERAS EVERY TEN FEET????
Give it up, LB....
"Why? They weren't expecting anything of this magnitude. What did you want them to have? WTF It's the PENTAGON?
When the neighbor's assistant totalled the boss's Ferrari into the wall at the end of the street, the whole incident was caught on CC video. With all the taxes dollar's being spent on defense, they don't have complete video surveillance at the PENTAGON?!!? GMAB!
If you watch the correct video shirl, instead of the one posted here, you'll be able to see the airliners vertical stabilizer and the smoke from the right engine which was reported by witnesses after it hit a lamp pole.
And...if they had wanted to spend the money on a HDTV super duper system, you all would just bitch about how it could have prevented Hurricane Katrina or some other crap.
GMAFB!
They've got the whole thing, probably from a dozen angles. GMAB, too.
And I love that... "betcha they've got it now, though" like an attack on the Pentagon never dawned on them before, despite having anti-missile defense systems in place.
I know it's included in the simulation posted earlier, but I don't believe "smoke coming from an engine after hitting a light pole" was reported by a witness, was it? I'm not being nasty or anything here, but if you know which witness said this or have a lead or a link, let me know. I don't think I heard this from any of the video witnesses I watched, but maybe I missed a few.
They won't release it because it would prove your dustification theory.
If GWB gave a speech and said the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, you'd call him a gdam liar.
HUNDREDS of people saw an AIRLINER hit the Pentagon...get a grip.
geezus criminy...
It's out there somewhere and reported in more than one place and seen on the video.
The news story about the Israeli bombing of Syria is slightly off topic, but I enjoyed this "light-bulb" moment from this earnest reporter trying to do her (his?) job...
"The problem of separating fact from fiction is compounded by the practice on all sides of routinely leaking distorted, exaggerated or downright bogus information to conceal the truth and wage psychological warfare."
From: "Theories abound on Israeli bombing of Syria"
http://tinyurl.com/2oslj3
http://tinyurl.com/2mlfs9
one of the best...don't believe your lying eyes...
I've got something somewhere with the witnesses that saw the engine smoking...don't feel like searching hundreds of bookmarks right now. May be on another computer.
This is all old hat anyway. I went through all this years ago.
I don't think even you, Forrest, can tell the difference between the remote control drone-missile I'm talking about and a regular airliner. In fact, my drone may have functioned as an airliner for some time before 9/11 for all we know, so chill, dude... I'm not the one disputing this one with you.
In fact, one of the biggest criticisms of the witness I cited above, Tim Timmerman, was that he was one of the few who nailed it entirely -- American Airlines 757.
When the reporter said, "767?", he replied, "No, 757 -- seven-five-seven, definitely."
People get on him for this and think he was just a little too right on to be for real (I think just about the only big difference between a 757 and a 767 is a 10-meter longer wingspan for the 767), but I've hung around with my fly-boy brothers for too long not to recognize a plane geek when I see one.
The guy admitted he was a pilot, like my brothers, and you could tell probably nothing made him happier than to sit in his high rise apartment and watch the planes take off and land at National, probably for hours on end.
I believe his testimony 100%, including the part where he said the plane "disintegrated."
"difference between the remote control drone-missile I'm talking about and a regular airliner. In fact, my drone may have functioned as an airliner for some time before 9/11"
WTH does that mean?
And to a "plane guy" 30' diff in wingspan and 25-60 tons diff in weight is noticeable.
Well, there is no way in hell a regular, aluminum-nosed 757 went through 4 rings of the Pentagon. Something's gotta give here, Life. This may be one case where it walked like a duck, quacked like a duck, but was a titanium-nosed decoy instead, like whatever it was that flew right through WTC2.
I have to admit that I am really confused why it is so difficult to imagine a plane that acts like a missile, especially when it is the best explanation to date that fits all the evidence.
We have one camp that rightly thinks it was a missile from the damage observed and one camp that rightly thinks it was a 757 from the eyewitness testimony. So what's the problem? Is there some impossibility to reinforcing the nose and body of a regular 757 so that it acts more like a missile? Does doing that somehow break the laws of physics? What am I missing here?
A 757 flying at 500+ MPH IS a "missile". There are pieces and parts of an airliner that have large mass and are extremely rigid. Center spar, titanium engine shafts and lots more.
And I'll take the testimony of a couple of hundred witnesses who say they saw an airliner over 3 or 4 people who "saw" "something" any day. There are people who saw people in the windows as it went by. Few and far between because of the time involved, but there were people on that plane. They've identified all the passengers on the plane except for one.
The major underlying fault in all the "Truthers" theories is...WHERE are all these "people" who were not on the planes that "DIDN'T" hit anything. WHERE are all the people who "did" this job? HUH!!
Are you naive enough to believe that in this society that someone wouldn't have "leaked" it all by now? Somebody wouldn't have taped a phone call, or taken a picture, or written an email, that would "expose" it all??
Gawd Almighty...
Isn't interesting that 9/11 "Liars" find it as hard to believe there IS be a cover-up as 9/11 truthseekers find it hard to believe that there ISN'T a cover-up. With the same evidence or lack there of..
You lost me on this one, Life -- it is not possible to see passengers on a plane that is flying by like that. It's an urban folklore. My flyboy brothers will tell you, plus you can go check it out for yourself. Go watch planes land at the local airport.
Also, it is not possible for planes to fly at 500 mph at such a low altitude. They would just completely shake apart long before reaching that speed. They are designed to fly that speed only in thin air in the upper atmosphere.
Brava! Thank you, h nicole!!
Wrong on all points nic. I've spent hundreds of hours not only filming airshows and the like, working on civil and military a/c, and when KCI opened, I used to go spend hours just watching the operations at the airport. I've spent several thousand hours flying in everything from single engine Cessna's to DC-10's, MD-11's, DC9/DC8, 767/757/747/737/727/707 and more.
It may be only a "glimpse", but it is possible to see people in airplanes.
And they will fly at that speed at any altitude. Be rougher than hell at that altitude, but they can. And the a/c was in a dive, descending, whatever you want to call it. And your heroes at pilotsfor911BS say 396 knots or 455.70869 MPH.
I've got probably 100+ airplane models, 500+ books on civil/military a/c and over 500+ hours of video of a/c that I have shot. Been a plane nut since I was about 3...trust me, I've forgot more about airplanes than you'll ever know. And I say that in a non rude manner dear. I'm almost more of a "plane" guy than I am a 'vette guy.
"Been a plane nut since I was about 3...."
Ooops, typo -- didn't you mean to say "been a plain nut since I was about 3..."? Makes sense to me.
Sounds like Asperger syndrome to us.
You can't see people in a commercial airliner when it is coming in for a landing, even for a "glimpse." Sorry, Life.
I would be very interested to see a clip of it, though, since you say you have filmed hours of it.
As for the speed, I'd say it would have had to have been flying at probably closer to 300-350 max for the pilot to maintain control, but like you, I'm no expert and there is tons of analyses on the web about this, I'm sure. What the purported hijacker purportedly did was very difficult even for an experienced pilot and even without the controls shaking uncontrollable on top of everything else.
However, these speeds and maneuvers that are reported for all the planes make a lot more sense when you realize that they were drones flown by highly experienced remote control pilots. Then maybe I can see the 450-550 reported.
Once again the government's conspiracy theories require a lot bigger stretch of the imagination and a suspension of basic physical principles -- at least a lot moreso than many alternative explanations.
And "flying in airplanes" all over the country doesn't make you a plane expert nor a pilot.
This guy says the 757 was going 350 mph, according to the black boxes, but not sure why he contradicts pilots for 9/11 truth.
http://www.earth-citizens.net/pages-en/trj-blow.html
Here are some specs that say we, as the public, don't know what the maximum speed of a 757 is at sea level...
http://tinyurl.com/ytbo4s
Max Level Speed at altitude: 580 mph (935 km/h) at 30,000 ft (9,140 m), Mach 0.86
at sea level: unknown
cruise speed: 530 mph (850 km/h) at 35,000 ft (10,675 m), Mach 0.80
Initial Climb Rate unknown
Service Ceiling 42,030 ft (12,810 m)
Range (757-200) 3,905 nm (7,240 km)
(757-200F) 2,895 nm (5,370 km)
(757-300) 3,450 nm (6,410 km)
g-Limits unknown
Here is a guy that agrees with me that the best a 757 can do at sea level is about 330 mph, but he is just spewing out the number off the top of his head, like me, w/o any references. Not sure where I got that number in my head either...
Rossiboy, you aren't even close with either of your responses. Turbulence is not a term used to describe conditions when a plane is landing, that would be Wind Shear. Secondly, 600-900 km/h is off by about 300-600 km/h. At sea level the best a 757 can do is about 330 knots (+/- 20). Landing speed is roughly 120-130. To think that this was a 'botched' landing is laughable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkH42eBf7Mw
The point is, Life, I believe the speeds reported for all the planes is yet another problem -- they are all around 500mph, and some were at 600mph at first. They have been creeping down since the initial estimates have been shown to be impossible (which is kinda funny, I think), but still...
Sounds like drones to me since I don't believe a "regular" 757 can do even your recently "creeped down" estimate of 450 at sea level.
I may be wrong, but that is what things are pointing to, and I'm going to need something a little better from you than "I have a penis and therefore the harder I pound my chest, the more correct I am with my facts."
Your responses only validate your ignorance of aircraft nic. Sorry.
Ass Burger syndrome...that's a good one Shoes.
And thanks for falling for the "plane nut" setup MS. A 3 year old could have seen that coming. Obviously you didn't.
"drones flown by highly experienced remote control pilots. Then maybe I can see the 450-550 reported."
WTF makes you think a "drone" flown by remote control would be capable of flying faster than a manned plane? I repeat..WTF?
That is probably one of the most outrageous, uninformed, stupid things I have read on this blog...and that's saying a lot considering the BS I've read on here.
You sound like you make some sense now and then nic, and then you pull loony shit like this out of what?...Rosie's butt? Thin air? What?
I'll tell ya' what. When you've spent a year working on a prototype military a/c and designing and engineering the installation of all the avionics, FLIR, SLAR, etc. on board and take a test flight with a USAF General(USSOUTHCOM) on board, get back to me.
Until then, nothing you say about airplanes has any credibility whatsoever with me.
Oh, now it was a set up. I seeeeeee. (Although even a two-year-old can tell you're just trying to CYA.)
...easier than shootin' fish in a barrel.
You have yet to establish how all these experiences you are claiming, which are questionable enough as it is to begin with, have anything to do with knowing the maximum flight speed and handling of a 757 at sea level.
Just stop BS'ing, Life, and help supply the info we are all looking for -- top speed of a commercial 757 at sea level, with a reference other than personal annecdote. Thanks.
And how does a drone flown by an experienced remote control pilot fly better and more accurately at 450-500 at sea level than a regular commercial aircraft flown by a purported hijacker who never flew a 757 before, at any altitude?
I guess I wasn't specific enough.
Well, a drone that is built to act like a missile and withstand higher speeds, for one, and a drone that is controlled by somebody experienced and used to flying it hundreds of times at top speeds at all altitudes, for two.
This, as opposed to a regular commercial airliner for which, to my knowledge so far, we don't know its maximum speed at sea level nor its handling ability at that speed, plus a newbie purported hijacker doing it for the first time ever?
Which story seems more plausible and fits the evidence better?
"to my knowledge so far"
Therein lies the rub...
Well, to "our" knowledge so far then. Still doesn't help your argument.
We don't care what speed it is, we still don't see a plane...
Moving on...
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